063 | Your Product Launch The Path to Market | John Farkas | Golden Spiral | Studio CMO
Product marketing is the opportunity you have to focus your solution, perfect your architecture, and put your ideas forward in such a way that makes sense to your audience and helps you gain traction in the market quicker.
If you’re going to launch into the marketplace, you need to ensure you have solid product/market fit.
About Our Guest
John Farkas founded Golden Spiral to help companies uncover a market-focused story that will transform the way people see their world. As CEO and Storyteller, John works closely with team members and clients to provide strategic vision and creative direction. One of his favorite parts of working at Golden Spiral is uniting people around a challenge and inspiring them to create great work.
“I’m a storyteller at heart. The process of developing a narrative, regardless of its form, is magical — and working with creative teams to bring that story to life is a blast. We have a tremendous staff here at Golden Spiral and watching them make things happen is one of my greatest privileges.”
Aside from his work at Golden Spiral, John loves spending time with his family and is an avid cyclist, frequently commuting the 38-mile round trip to the office (which obviously entitles him to collect bicycles). He remembers saving for a Macintosh 512 when he was attending The University of Wisconsin, knowing it would change his life forever.
Show Notes
Product launch is a lot like rocket launch. And a lot of times from our a vantage point, we’ve seen so many companies be like, what happened to Werner von Braun.
The Reasons Companies Struggle with Product Launch
- Lack of the Product Marketing function on the team
- The vast speed of the marketplace
- The challenges of technical founders launching organizations
A Detailed Look at the Product Marketing Function
- What product marketers do
- The value of product marketing to an organization
- Where product marketing should “sit” in an organization
- How product marketing interacts with sales
- How production marketing interacts with marketing
- What keeps companies from installing product marketing
Links Mentioned on This Episode
Download our Product Launch Guide and Timeline
Product Marketing versus Company Marketing for HealthTech Businesses
B2B Product Launch Secrets from the Apollo 10 Mission
Subscribe
Transcript
John Farkas (0:00):
We talk about it in nearly every episode of Studio CMO: the HealthTech market is really crowded and has a lot of different vendors saying a lot of different things to a pretty thin slice of people. Clarity is really important. And if you’re looking to bring a new product to market, you better have things extremely well-targeted. When we’re talking about targeting. When we’re talking about audience segmentation, when we’re talking about a well-defined product that meets a well-defined need that has strong product/market fit and pull in the context of the market. A lot of what we’re talking about there is the discipline of product marketing. If you’re ready to launch a product, it’s a part of your house you better have in order. And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today on Studio CMO.
Mark Whitlock (01:22):
Welcome to Studio CMO, I’m Mark Whitlock. And you’re listening to the podcast that from the marketing perspective helps you accelerate the transformation of healthcare, where you are. Our host John Farkas, from whom you just heard, is with us today. And John, uh, were you a, a rocket crazed guy when you were growing up, were you into the space program?
John Farkas (01:41):
You know, I definitely grew up in the era of the space race, and I had, uh, my Estes rockets that I launched from my backyard and wondered at how far they were able to go up into the sky and watch the parachutes open and bringing them back down and chase them into my neighbor’s pool. And definitely had had that part of my, my backdrop.
Mark Whitlock (02:07):
Yeah, me too. Anna Grimes. My fellow co-host is with us today. How about you, Anna? Was the space program ever a fascination for you?
Anna Grimes (02:14):
Oh yeah, absolutely. Watching Neil Armstrong land on the moon. And then I, I actually do remember Apollo XIII and the fact that we were so used to everything going up without a hitch and how everybody kind of held their breath for a while. But the other thing I remember too is how quickly the market responded, particularly the kids and juvenile market with just so much merchandise that was space-themed, space-oriented that was focused on both girls and boys in terms of, you know, food, lunch, boxes, puzzles, toys, games
John Farkas (03:00):
I will really, really date myself right now. And I’m realizing that we’re already marking ourselves as irrelevant to a big part of our, progressive knowledge. Cause we’re indeed, because we’re apparently too old, but I’m just gonna tell you, look up Major Matt Mason, if, if you don’t know what Major Matt Mason is, uh, maybe, maybe one of the coolest toy sets wow. Ever created by Mattel. It was the coolest thing I owned and I still think by today’s standards, it would be pretty darn cool. So there you go.
Mark Whitlock (03:35):
And if you’re wondering why we’re talking about space, you heard John—
John Farkas (03:39):
So am I so answer that question, Mark. Golden Spiral might be a collection of space geeks. It might be true.
Mark Whitlock (03:50):
We might name our, our conference rooms—
Anna Grimes (03:52):
We can update ourselves and talk about the Mars Rover.
John Farkas (03:55):
There you go. That’s right. So
Mark Whitlock (03:57):
Here’s the thing. Product launch is a lot like rocket launch. And a lot of times from our a vantage point, we’ve seen so many companies be like, what happened to Werner von Braun. If you’ve ever seen the movie, “The Right Stuff,” you know, there’s this whole segment, a montage in this movie, one of the, one of the great movies about the space race, where it’s explosion after explosion, after explosion, after explosion, they can’t get it right. They can’t get the rocket, right. They can’t get the fuel, right, et cetera. We have seen, John, over the course of time. So many companies struggle with product launch that it feels like at times, Werner von Braun watching rocket after rocket, after rocket explode. And we know at least how to point them in direction of not having that happen.
John Farkas (04:45):
There’s definitely a lot of reasons why companies struggle with this. Um, but I’ll tell you from my perspective, one of the most common and pervasive issues, and that is a lack of a really important seat at the table or function on the org chart. It happens, especially in early-stage companies. It also happens pretty frequently in my experience in sales-driven companies. When you have a technology that you’re working with, there’s often a lot of excitement around that technology. And if you found a problem and you go after it, you might get lucky and find an initial component that fits the market and, and you can bring it to market. But if you don’t have a well-established product marketing function in your organization, you’re really running a risk of putting something forward that doesn’t fit the way it needs to, to really catch and move forward.
John Farkas (05:51):
What I tell people it’s like relative to the org chart of many product organizations, product marketing is one of the newest and most important elements in the SaaS or technology marketing universe. So it’s really important to understand it. And you gotta know how you can apply it and bring that forward in your company. Because if you don’t, it’s like you’ve created a rocket without really knowing what that rocket needs to do or what trajectory it needs to point toward. And you’re filling it full of very expensive fuel, and you’re launching it and hoping that maybe it’ll reach its mark. And if you do that more often than not, it’s gonna blow up because you just haven’t done the work it takes to ensure that that rocket is really well built, that it knows exactly where it’s going. You figured all the telemetry and done your best work to ensure that it is gonna hit the target.
John Farkas (06:59):
Without that. You’re just hoping.
Mark Whitlock (07:02):
And hope is never a good marketing strategy.
John Farkas (07:04):
It’s tough, especially when you are spending the kind of resources it takes to bring something to market. You want to do better than hope. You want to have as much knowledge and understanding of what’s going on. And that is the role of product marketing. So look at that. If I’m gonna really look at defining product marketing, product marketing is the function within the organization that connects the dots between the product team and the marketing team and the sales team. And so they’re the folks in the organization who are pulling all those things together. They’re listening to what’s going on in sales land. And they, they know they’re, they’re, they’re in tune with the customer voice and they understand what people are asking for and where the gaps might be in their existing offerings that represent opportunity.
John Farkas (07:56):
They are working with the product team. They know what their technology is capable of doing. They know what their team is capable of creating. They understand what’s going on in the context of what can their machine, what can their factory create, and then they’re linked tightly with their marketing department so that when the need is understood, when there’s a lot of synergy in what ought to come forward as a product, they’re working with their marketing to seem to say, “Here’s what we need to make sure we say.” We call it their marketecture. You have to know where a new offering is going to fit in the structure of what you’re bringing forwards. So often we’ll have organizations say, we’ve got this amorphous thing that we think is really important and we, we wanna bring it to market. And, and we ask the questions, okay, how is this gonna fit within in your present offerings?
John Farkas (08:56):
And there’s not a clear answer. It has to have a clear answer. It has to tell a clear story. And so the product marketing people are the ones who help form that and they can bring it to the marketing team and say, this is what we have. This is why it’s important. Help us articulate it in a way that’s really gonna resonate. So they’re shaping the product. So they’re working with the sales team and their customer base to do customer research and questioning. They’re looking at competitors and they’re understanding what their competitors are doing and not doing and understanding what’s going on with those needs. And then they’re working with, you know, in, in our context, we call it the Buyer Matrix. You know, other people might use personas. They’re really working to develop a clear understanding of what the missing is in your market and how you’re going to fill that and what problems it solves.
John Farkas (09:54):
And then, you know, what are you gonna do from a pricing perspective? How’s this offering gonna be priced? And how’s that make sense from a revenue model with the organization? I mean, do you hear the important components that’s all bringing together? It’s, it’s really essential. So if you don’t have somebody working to bring those things together, you need to understand the void that exists. And maybe you can’t have a head count there just quite yet, but you better understand the essential nature of bringing those things forward and how it forms a meaningful foundation for a product launch.
Mark Whitlock (10:36):
John, what would you say in our experience, how many companies don’t have this function in place?
John Farkas (10:44):
Well, you know, here’s the reality we’re dealing with a lot of, in many cases, young, fast-growing companies. When you have a company that starts with a product idea, the gravity in a lot of these organizations is product and sales. That’s, that’s where a lot of it starts. Right? And, and, and rightly so, because when you’re bringing new technology forward, part of what you need to do is get some early market validation, like are we solving a meaningful problem? And so before you’re spending a whole lot of money in marketing, you’re trying to build a relationship with a potential target. Maybe it’s a health system, maybe it’s a surgery center. Maybe it’s someone who is willing to try on your solution and give you some meaningful feedback. So that really is the product team in many cases. And it’s gonna be the person with the relationship that can help make that happen. The important thing to keep in mind is that the organization moves, grows and matures. And, and as you get ready to do the work of saying, we’re going to bring this to market, you’ve gotta figure out what the shape of that offering is. And that is a product marketing function.
Anna Grimes (12:00):
So John, we’ve seen with our clients that this product market function is sometimes it’s in product. Sometimes it’s in marketing, what’s the best way for companies to address this product market function.
John Farkas (12:15):
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think it’s really important because you really wanna avoid specific directional biases if it’s at all possible. And so ideally the product market function sits in the middle of those three organizations in the middle of sales, marketing, and product, because it’s important that they maintain this somewhat agnostic perspective and the objectivity that can come with it because ideally the product marketing sits as its own function. And because they’re the ones that are working to decide the positioning of the product and it’s designed on the roadmap, how they’re bringing it forward. And they’re really working to identify those customer pain points. They’re the ones that are understanding when, how, and what segment they’re going to launch this to where, and when it’s gonna be most effective.
Anna Grimes (13:20):
I get it. It’s sort of like having a product ombudsman, somebody who kind of can be the public advocate for, you know, representing the customer, but also representing the product team and the marketing team all at the same time.
John Farkas (13:35):
Yeah. I mean, and maybe it’s a step even above that. They are the product author at the end of the day.
Anna Grimes (13:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
John Farkas (13:42):
They are taking the technology. That’s possible. They’re taking the void that sales is understanding and they’re coming and they’re working with marketing to say, okay, we’ve got this hole and we’ve got the ability to fill it. We are going to create this product to do this thing this way. And they’re doing the work of understanding that so well and working to assure product/market fit, that when it’s time to articulate it, we’re not guessing we’re knowing as much as it’s possible so that when, you know, we’ve designed a rocket that has good integrity so that when it’s time to put fuel in it and the marketing team does the work of launching it to the market. We have minimized our guesses. We, we have really good understanding. We’ve got really good knowledge and we feel confident that that’s, that what we’re bringing forward is gonna fit.
Anna Grimes (14:42):
We’ve got a pretty good idea of where that rocket’s going to, what customers it’s going to.
Mark Whitlock (14:47):
So in a perfect world, we’re, we’re migrating product marketing into this place where it’s cross-functional with sales and marketing and is listening to other departments as well. And everyone’s listening to each other. We’re avoiding silos and busting ’em up when they come. But in the long run John product marketing, isn’t new. This isn’t something that just, just kind of come around in the last couple of years, but why it coming to the forefront now? Why is this discussion so important?
John Farkas (15:15):
Mark, it’s all about the speed of change right now. I mean, we are living in an extremely fluid world where the shape of market, the shape of needs, the shape of what technology is making possible is rapidly advancing. It’s rapidly changing. So making sure that we’re diligent about doing the work of watching those trends of keeping tabs on what the needs are of working to seed innovation and push our product teams to meet relevant challenges that keep us on top of the ball is really important. And so we have to confront the fact that how we are delivering products today is changing. I mean, it is much more fluid. People have lots of expectations that innovation is gonna keep moving us forward.
Anna Grimes (16:07):
It’s not just the speed though, John, isn’t it also the more crowded marketplace, more and more entrants into the healthcare/HealthTech marketplace with point-to-point solutions, very little broad solutions that seem to address a number of pain points for healthcare providers.
John Farkas (16:26):
Absolutely. I mean that it gets back to product/market fit. Right? Right. It’s so loud. And there’s so any entrance that what you have better be well targeted, what you are bringing needs to have the kind of teeth that is gonna make a difference and create velocity. You know, you want that adoption. You want people to get excited about what you’re doing. I mean, we have a client that we’re working with right now that has one of the most compelling solutions that I’ve seen come forward in HealthTech. In some time they took a very real world problem that they ex experienced in a long-term consulting framework and said, okay, there’s a huge problem there that’s very evident and has lots of pain with it and lots and lots of money. And if we can create a well-articulated solution for this market, we’re going to see some really nice traction.
John Farkas (17:27):
That’s an ideal scenario. You know, they knew the problem really well. So they had product, they had their sales machine working well together. They understood, they needed to do the work to determine what this product was going to be and how they were gonna articulate it to the market. They don’t have a seat right now in product marketing yet. Right. But they knew they needed to do the work because they, they had to provide a really clear, compelling component. And so that’s part of how we helped them. We kinda came in and helped them have that function. We’d help them do a really good job of creating their Buyer Matrix and understanding the problems clear. We doing work in conjunction with them around their analysts, conversations to help really create some clear validation, and framing a strategy for bringing it to market that is gonna have some real teeth because it’s a very clear path. And so that’s the work that needs to happen there. You have to get in the middle of those and say, “Okay, how are we gonna tell this story in a way that’s crystal clear and meets a very validated need?”
Anna Grimes (18:40):
Avoid the pressure that you’re gonna get within your organization, because it’s gonna happen where product is get so excited about the pro, but marketing and sales need to weigh in and go, look, I understand your excitement, but we’ve got this world out here and it’s demanding something that’s maybe a little bit different than what you’re talking about right now. It goes back to the silo piece, but it also goes back to command and control of the conversation and keeping everybody focused on the, the number one goal. So don’t fall in love with your technology. We say that all the time to clients, but also listen to each other and try to avoid the turf battles that can occur when you’re asking all of these people to align towards a common goal.
John Farkas (19:31):
The thing to consider with that is that product marketing really is focused on helping your product get adopted by the market. That’s their focus. So they’re working on shaping the product to ensure adoption. And so that is different than marketing’s job, which is to be the translation layer, say, okay, we’ve got this. Here’s how we’re gonna say it in the right voice at the right time to the right people and carrying out those, those functions and the tactics.
Anna Grimes (20:06):
One of the bigger challenges I think for HealthTech is, you know, unlike the iPad, we didn’t even know we needed the iPad right there. Wasn’t a crying need for this. What we have in HealthTech is we have a whole bunch of needs, but we haven’t always thrown technology as the solution to those needs. You’ve gotta have the strength of that translation layer or to say, “No, no, no, this really does help address that need. And it may not look like that at first, but this product really does.” And I’m thinking particularly of patient engagement technologies that, you know, on first glance may look like, um, a solution that, that doesn’t really have enough weight to it that can be effective for a broad swath of a, a health systems population. But depending on how well it gets marketed, then the compelling argument can be made. And I think we’ve seen some big exits in the last two years from some of these HealthTech companies that validate that they, they iterate again and again, and finally came up with the right solution
John Farkas (21:20):
And something to keep in mind here too. You can skip over product marketing. If you have a gargantuan and budget that Def affords you the chance to, to launch a bunch of rockets and watch ’em explode and learn from what exploded and iterate, right? You can do that. A lot of Silicon Valley companies with a lot of funding do that. They will keep launching rockets into the market, be content and, you know, monitoring and watching ’em explode and then, and iterate and do it again. Yeah. And it can work when you have a lot of resources, but when your funding is at some level limited and most people’s funding is having a really good approach shot, having a really well-constructed rocket just makes sense. And you can do that. It’s not gonna be perfect. You’re gonna learn things you’re gonna need to iterate, but if you can get it 70% at first launch you’re way ahead. Yeah. And then your iteration is incremental and, and manageable as opposed to having to redesign a rocket. And so that’s what we’re talking about here. Product marketing is really the opportunity you have to focus your solution to perfect your architecture and put things forward in a way that makes sense and speeds traction. And it’s a really important component when you’re starting to look at how you’re going to launch.
Mark Whitlock (22:40):
So let’s equip these teams a little bit. Here’s product marketing. It’s trying to connect the dots. As you said, John, between the product and the product and sales. What does a healthy relationship look like? What does a win look like for the product marketing function to connect the product to sales?
John Farkas (23:03):
It’s an interesting question and how product marketing fits in the context of sales. A lot of times it’s working with the sales team to get a really good view of the intricacies of the need that exists within the market. And so they’re sitting with them on sales calls, they’re working with them in the development of sales enablement resources, um, and helping them in ensure that what they’re bringing across is really well-knit to the need and is articulated in a way that’s gonna create velocity.
Mark Whitlock (23:38):
And how about connecting the dots with marketing? What does it look like to have a healthy relationship between the product marketing function and the brand marketing function?
John Farkas (23:46):
Marketing is really looking at the broader swath and they’re working to communicate the core value of a product to the prospects. You know, looking at content marketing, that’s looking at, you know, all the measurable demand generation activities and the broad brand awareness, but product marketing is really specializing in helping the product get adopted. Right? So they’re, they’re the ones that are really focused in on what it means to ensure that when you get down to it, there’s a really clear value line. And, and so when you make the case, people, you know, they’re the ones responsible for the get it factor. And so that’s really an important place for marketing to, and, and product marketing to live product marketing needs to say, this is the essential thing that we need to make sure we’re doing a great job of communicating because when we do, they will get it. You know, when, when you build this story, the market will respond. And so that’s the gift that the product marketing needs to be able to wrap up and give to the marketing team is this is your silver bullet. You make this case and the market will resonate because this is the clear need. That’s why it’s important for them to help inform that top line message that is going to really find its harmonic stream.
Mark Whitlock (25:23):
So what keeps companies from connecting all these dots? What keeps ’em from making this actually work question and to have the synergy and why do we see so many explosions on the launchpad?
John Farkas (25:35):
My experience, especially in early-stage companies is it has a lot to do with the dynamics of the founding team. If it’s a highly sales-driven organization, this can be about sales and product. If it’s a highly product driven company, it’s gonna be about product and sales. Marketing is usually a late entrant into the equation. Yes, because of that, it’s usually brought in at a point where people are starting to feel urgent about creating demand. And very often that product marketing position gets leapfrogged and somebody will develop a marketing function. And that gap in the center between product, sales, and marketing gets left empty. You know, it gets jumped over in the urgency of bringing things together because there’s just not a, you know, a lot of times in early companies, a lot of these scenarios have never quite put together a team like this.
John Farkas (26:38):
And so that might be ignorance. It might be a lack of understanding of the essential nature of the new, you know, what we talked about earlier that, that new priority of making sure your sales, marketing and product teams are inseparably linked are working in tight harmony and a lack of understanding of how the product marketing function knits those together. So if actively a company that was putting things together seven years ago is a very different mentality than what a successful organization looks like now bringing a technology product to market. that link between sales, marketing, and product has to be there. So that’s why sometime it gets overlooked. So it’s important to say too, that different organizations have different complexity levels. We were talking earlier about illustration of our, of a company that had a really compelling solution that they, that grew out of a consultancy. That particular instance doesn’t have a official product market function, but their go to market is relatively simple.
John Farkas (27:50):
They have a solution that meets a major need. Their initial offering is gonna be pretty straightforward and, and we know it meets a real need. And so we have to do the work of product marketing and initially bringing it forward. But their opportunity in the product marketing function will evolve as that organization launches and matures and they begin to diversify and develop their offerings. So it’s possible for an early stage company to bring something forward without somebody sitting in the product marketing seat, as long as they understand the product marketing function and how you need to bring that conversation together in a way that’s gonna make sense. When you get a more established company that has a lot more moving parts and sophisticated set of product offerings, it’s essential. You have to have that seat filled by somebody who understands their role of bringing those three elements together and serving as that glue.
Mark Whitlock (28:58):
So here on the path to market on the, on the path to the launching pad, John, um, you’ve got a company that’s working to connect the dots, uh, they’ve got a product marketing function they’re working on silo busting, et cetera. What’s the first baby step they’ve gotta take. Once they get that under their belts, what do they need to do to start moving toward the launching pad?
John Farkas (29:22):
The good news is if you’ve got a really well defined solution that we know fits. So then the next step is to say, “Okay, what is our plan going to be to get the market excited?” And that’s the next step? So you we’re, we’ve got a well articulated solution. We know it is gonna have some pull into the market and then we just need to figure out where are the people that we need to talk to and what are the messages that we need to put forward that are gonna get them to click.
Mark Whitlock (29:59):
And that’s not only step that’s another podcast episode coming up soon on Studio CMO to continue our conversation about being ready for takeoff, being ready to send that rocket, uh, to where it’s gonna go so they can have maximum impact. And, uh, the payload can be released into the universe for the betterment of all humankind. And, and on, at some point in here, we’re gonna talk about marketing becomes an essential part of this.
John Farkas (30:27):
We built a rocket and that rocket has great integrity. It’s got a really clear mission and now it’s time to launch it. And what does that mean? It means we, we need a team that knows what it’s gonna take to get it from where it is right now, to where it ultimately needs to go. We know, I mean, we’re all familiar with the tactics and the components that that requires, but jumping off from where product marketing is left us, taking a, that clear understanding of what the problem set is and how we’re, we’ve solved really well for the, that in a way that is clear and makes sense. Then it’s a matter of saying, okay, how are we going to knit that into the market in a way that is really gonna create the traction and velocity that we need. And that’s where it gets fun, because if you’ve got the right solution, if you’ve got the fit, then you’re gonna find a resident strain. You’re gonna, you’re gonna find the movement that you need. And it’s marketing’s job to do, make sure that that’s communicated in a way that’s clearly differentiated. That is hitting the right people at the right time with the right kind of sticky content and, and, uh, and clickable opportunities that pull buyers into your ecosystem. And that’s what a launch strategy is designed to do. And we’re gonna dive farther into that as we keep going here.
Mark Whitlock (31:53):
And so here’s the best way you can find out about the next chapter in this series on getting your product to the launching pad and having a successful launch that’s to subscribe to Studio CMO. The best way to do that is in your favorite podcasting app. So if you come to studiocmo.com and you look at the, is your product ready for takeoff episode, you’ll see a link to where you can subscribe in your favorite podcasting app. And that way you’ll get alerts of when the next episode comes out in the process. In the meantime, we’re gonna link out to some helpful resources that kind of dive down into parts and pieces of what we talked about today. If this is where you are struggling, then, uh, we have resources available for you. And there’s one resource that we’re gonna make available that we don’t make available all the time. And that is the opportunity to have an objective third party kick ideas around with you, uh, from time to time, we give an opportunity for you to have a no obligation phone call, no obligation consultation with John. Uh, just to, just to hear what you’re struggling with and kind of give of you a couple compass points for where you could go. Uh, and John, you found these to be incredibly helpful for the companies that have taken advantage of them.
John Farkas (33:08):
You know, it’s always helpful to get some objective perspective. And even if it’s just a conversation, a one time conversation that we have, and it helps you down the road, we’d love to be able to do that. So don’t hesitate. I mean, this isn’t gonna be, uh, a deal where we’re trying to rope you into something. Part of our mission here is to help healthcare move forward. And if you’ve got an exciting solution that you’re trying to bring forward, that’s gonna help the world in a meaningful way. We’d love to help you do that. So if we can, uh, add some synergy and add some objective perspective, we’d love to invest the time.
Mark Whitlock (33:42):
So come to studiocmo.com and click on the launch episode. And you’ll find out information about how you can set up a no obligation consultation, uh, with John to, uh, just give you some perspective. The product discussion starts with one key thing. And that’s what we talk about at the end of every episode of Studio CMO. And that is you must understand your buyer’s problems
Anna Grimes (34:07):
Lead with an empathetic understanding
John Farkas (34:10):
And work hard to make your buyer the hero.
Mark Whitlock (34:14):
We’ll see you next time on Studio CMO.
